magic9mushroom: The sort of team that wants to use Meganium doesn't care. Meganium isn't for stall teams, it's for hyper-offensive teams that need a broad-spectrum wall to avoid instantly losing if their scenario gets derailed.
Oct 19, 2014 22:24:44 GMT 1
magic9mushroom: Meganium's possibly even better than Suicune at fulfilling that role, because it's got even broader defensive coverage and sets screens. Doesn't matter that Synthesis has crap PP since you ideally only bring Meganium in once or maybe twice.
Oct 19, 2014 22:26:00 GMT 1
jorgen: Eh I dunno if I believe that. I tried to think that way about Suicune and Starmie too, but offenses generally want everyone to contribute to the cause, passive mons tend to be dead weight.
Oct 19, 2014 23:36:14 GMT 1
jorgen: that said, screens mean meganium can contribute in some sense, although the thing about screens is that it's really hard to pivot to something scary in time to make full use of them.
Oct 19, 2014 23:37:31 GMT 1
magic9mushroom: Well, the main issue with setting screens is that CurseLax tends to come in, and direct counters to CurseLax (ie, you switch in and threaten to KO it) simply don't exist (AA Vap sorta-maybe-ish?). Meganium has Leech Seed to mitigate that somewhat.
Oct 19, 2014 23:57:33 GMT 1
magic9mushroom: But you'll note that I said *hyper*-offensive. I'm not talking about your typical "offense" team of cloy/zap/lix/gar/egg/lax or something, but something much faster like a Baton Pass team.
Oct 20, 2014 0:07:05 GMT 1
magic9mushroom: A successful BP uses 2-3 Pokemon to kill 4-6. So you may have room for a Suicune/Meganium/whatever since your win condition executes based on situation more than on material.
Oct 20, 2014 0:09:14 GMT 1
jorgen: I'm not too hot on team stratification. If you're using a team that wants to play at pace X, you want all members of the team to be able to maintain that pace.
Oct 20, 2014 4:48:50 GMT 1
jorgen: So I'm basically proposing the miscibility heuristic in teambuilding: like dissolves like. Sweepers and BPers are water-soluble, stall mons want an organic solvent.
Oct 20, 2014 5:07:28 GMT 1
jorgen: Of course, such an analogy allows for the troublesome possibility of surfactants...
Oct 20, 2014 5:07:30 GMT 1
magic9mushroom: And phase-transfer catalysts. Quaternary ammonium chlorides are so cool.
Oct 20, 2014 12:22:59 GMT 1
jawgn: Fleshing out an idea for a BP team. It's basically flowchart gaming to the max.
Nov 10, 2014 6:53:50 GMT 1
jawgn: Maybe you'll see it for RoA BOTW if I can get off my duff and schedule that :x
Nov 10, 2014 6:53:57 GMT 1
jawgn: actually scratch that i can't do that BOTW anyway.
Nov 10, 2014 6:57:46 GMT 1
Isa: Smeargle abuse planned?
Nov 10, 2014 18:00:43 GMT 1
jawgn: Yeah. Smeargle definitely isn't auto-win, but the post-Smeargle plan is actually pretty decent
Nov 11, 2014 2:48:48 GMT 1
jawgn: Like, your opponent has to have balls of steel to thwart your follow-up setup ideas.
Nov 11, 2014 2:52:58 GMT 1
jawgn: Biggest issue is actually finding a way to deal with all the Lax variants out there. Particularly LK Lax, he forces Miracleberry on things that'd like to have Lefties to be able to tank an extra Surf
Nov 11, 2014 2:54:27 GMT 1
magic9mushroom: Well IIRC the main things to cover are 1) phazers 2) ST CurseLax 3) Explosion spam. Also what's a BOTW?
Nov 17, 2014 5:48:42 GMT 1
piexplode: BOTW = Battle Of The Week
Nov 17, 2014 17:19:28 GMT 1
I'm assuming we're doing something akin to 2k10, where we just take the familiar BL name and try to make that a playable tier of sorts. Given that:
Vap is definitely OU Charizard probably belongs in OU due to power and historical usage, not so much on current usage Clefable stays in BL. Barely used at all in OU, and it doesn't have the power or historical usage to bump it up. Definitely a step above the UUers, though. Dnite to OU, definitely. Espeon to OU... yeah, it's got pretty healthy usage Muk usage is creeping upward. It's probably OU-worthy. Smeargle to BL, definitely.
Other considerations: Slowbro to BL. Slowking can probably stay. Chansey probably deserves a second glance as a UUer as well. Imo, Venusaur kinda just looks wrong in UU, but as I think about it, that's where it belongs. Aerodactyl might be UU-worthy. Tenta probably deserves another shot at OU glory. Then again, I've only really seen Tiba use it as of late. Buzz is one to look at in UU. Not suggesting a bump to BL, just a look.
An NU tier would be helpful, and would probably, off the top of my head, include the following:
Yeah Clefable is probably BL... idk. Same as tenta imo.
As for lower tiers all I can do is speculate though. I agree with Aero (too many waters and electrics to some extent). Buzz is a really good sweeper in UU with no hard counters (it is not switching into anything though).
As for Bro/Chansey idk. It's different meta though. I don't really think they pretty hard wall a lot of things in UU (like Skarm/Cune in OU at most, probably, and they are still in OU; on the other hand Skarm/cune in Ubers is stupid). Pretty good supporters for sure though (bell, growl, twave, screens... you know).
Regarding NU... i'll be speculating even more here... but Flareon seems to strong for NU imo with growth, pass and hitting hard from both sides. And Granbull will have UU usage if Chansey is moved up to BL I guess...
Anwyay, I think we can at least make these changes for now: Vap to OU Dnite to OU Espeon to OU Muk to OU Smeargle to BL
Last Edit: Feb 19, 2012 17:55:32 GMT 1 by Crystal_
Not really. It's still pretty good. Missy forces your opponent to switch to a phazer each time (and it's probably the pokemon that most forces you to run a phazer in every team) and it's great Snorlax coverage, best spin blocker, immune to explosions, cross chop etc. And he is used more than other OUs like Alakazam, Muk and Blissey anyway.
PO stats seem better now. Pgon2 is a shame though. And I definitely think Zam doesn't belong to OU. I'm moving it unless you guys don't agree.
Im partial to wait before changing the UU tier (and making a NU tier). I'm going to make UU tourns in the future for those that want to participate, so we will get closer to the meta after we play them.
Last Edit: Dec 12, 2011 14:58:29 GMT 1 by Crystal_
Exploders help Zard. Cloy for Starmie, Lax for Cune, Gar for Kou. Paralysis helps him luck things. Light screen is handy, but hard to pass to Zard within a useful timeframe, and dedicating a mon to LS probably isn't too practical. Honestly, even with support, Zard usually needs a little luck on its side to work (RS flinches, fps, bad talks, etc.), but boy is it good at straight-up winning the game for you if it gets that luck.
So I guess Cloyster and something to paralyse Zapdos/Raikou (not really sure what is best for this role), then hide Charizard until you get an opportunity, bring it out, and sweep. I do like how it works against Steelix since that's really popular without Rock Slide now, could play some mindgames with the 50/50 between Fire Blast and Belly Drum in that matchup. I might give zard a better try.
Charizard might also be able to wear down Raikou by himself though. A lot of offensive teams pack Steelix and Eggy which are great for giving Zard opportunities to drum, while other drummers tend to have a much harder time drumming vs offensuve teams. Anyway, charizard is one of these "unreliable" things that either kills everything or just dies without doing anything.
Anyway, as for the tiers there are some things that are really difficult to place. Charizard is one of them. Pgon 2, Espeon, Muk, Tenta, Rhydon, maybe Zam and Quag could be OU too. But anyway, depite Zam usage stat being "high" in PO, i'm pretty sure that out of the 6'6%, at least about 5% is from bad players.
The PO tier list was basically just Borat dictating the tiers to PO. I know, after seeing them in OU, he started objecting to Kingdra and Slowbro in there.
Imo, Slowbro and Chansey should probably be moved out (yes, Chansey is really good, it shuts down a lot of random offense and forces you to either use it or die to status; same with Slowbro, once it gets in it basically shuts down any and all offense you can mount against it, forcing you to either lose or to play your own slow stally team with Slowbro on it). Meanwhile, Kingdra and Ampharos really aren't that big a deal in UU; they're good, but not broken-good (though without Bro and Chansey, Kingdra might be in the realm or broken-good after all, and would at least warrant a look).
Kingdra is still cursing in uu. And pretty good at it given no Zapdos/Raikou to break it from the special side. Surf/HP is plenty to get rid of most phazers in uu. Feel free to disagree with me in UU, but please, back it up with more than theory. Try it. You'd be surprised. It can be every bit as slow as OU if you want it to be. Didn't make the Bro/Kingdra decision seeing them in OU, but in UU play. Stalls are dominant with them.
@ew: Zard's still good. Probably not as good vs the generic stalls where pretty much every poke bar skarm is threatening it, but pretty much an instant 50% win vs most offensive teams. Zapdos/Raikou (pretty easy to toss around) are pretty good at paraing Raikous, and you have a 50/50 shot vs Zapdos from the getgo, even higher if they run thunder which "most" do. And you won't have to worry about cune/starmie for most offensive teams. And really, Flinch can literally win lost games. He's somewhat anti-meta imo.
Was on the fence on venusaur... saw it as a more well rounded Victreebel, faster, bulkier, and without real STAB. The set I had in mind was SD, Synthesis, HP Ground, Return/BS/DE. Anyone care to argue for it? Venusaur is probably the only "shit" pokemon in the BL list if it were there though. This is strictly "banlist thinking".
That said, while I do like Espeon a lot, I really think you guys are lying to yourselves if you find her to be truly an OU. She's not used that much. And at her best, she's still a "surprise" pokemon. I don't think she deserves the OU slot.
Porygon2 should be BL. No questions asked.
Zam can probably step down from OU, but tbh, his usage still warrants OU, but let's be serious, he's a BL pokemon at heart.
Rhydon gets BL listed imo, as long as HP legends are in effect. It's still ridiculously good, but still.
Zard is a toss up imo.
That would make keep the BL tier more balanced, playable tbh. Doesn't cram the OU space with "lies".
Also, I think Articuno deserves a shot at UU. Maybe Entei too. Probably not Entei though. But Articuno has VERY little going for it.
Also, I think at the time, I felt like Smeargle and Quagsire was kinda a toss up in UU. I knew one of them should be banned, since agi/drum quag is simply unstoppable in UU, and figured quag to be the lesser of the two evils (and smeargle was more widely used anyway).
There's still Amphy to blast it on the special side, though, although I've never really thought of Kingdra as a Curser. Idk, I guess just the lack of Physical STAB kept me from thinking of it as such. I personally always saw it more as a para-spreading Talker that walls mixed offense like Nidoqueen and keeps physical setup offense from starting up.
I guess one of the bigger problems with kingdra cursing in OU was that... snorlax was better at it. And Kingdra didn't really have the option of just surfing/HPing it to death as it does in UU. I haven't run the damages, but it seems like curse/DE has a fairly good shot of killing amphy before it succumbs to thunder?
And Kingdra has the option of running Resttalk, which might even be better. How good is piloswine at roaring anyway?
Honestly, I see Blastoise as the premier (P)hazer in UU if people decide to start carrying one.
Curse + DE is killing Amphy as fast as it's killing Raikou (3HKO at +1). And I'm pretty sure that Thunder is a 2HKO after DE recoil. Kingdra gets put in the unenviable position of praying for Thunder misses if it's going to get past Ampharos alive.
I have never played UU, so I will let you guys decide about it. An UU tourn will be happening "soon" (when OU#2 finishes I guess, if you guys want it), so my aim here is to define which things will be allowed / banned for this tourn, and when it finishes, decide is everything is fine or if something is wrong.
OU: I'm not a big fan of BL being bigger than OU because BL is mainly a ban tier after all, but I guess if something lacks OU usage it should be moved back to UU/BL. But having enough usage or not is still pretty subjective anyway.
Usage (from ranked stats as it is a lot more accurate) of the conflictive pokes (December / November / October / September):
Other OUs with "low" usage for making comparisons: Jolteon: 7'80% / 20'60% / 27'43% / 14'87% Blissey: 5'64% / 7'74% / 7'89% / 10'93% Heracross: 6'95% / 7'60% / 8'97% / 11'36% Missy, Forr, Dnite, Umby and Nidoking have pretty similar stats too, around 6-12%. (well, Jolteon was higher than I expected)
So there's a relevant difference between both goroups (like 4% vs 8% on average) so I'd either place all seven in BL, or all seven in OU.
Last Edit: Dec 20, 2011 19:26:26 GMT 1 by Crystal_
What are Muk's viable movesets? The one on Smogon seems decent but I'm sure that's not the only viable one; Mean Look is only mentioned in other options for example. I'm guessing there's that one, curse + rest + sludge bomb + sleeptalk/explosion, mean look + 3 attacks?
Of the rest that were mentioned, the ones that have seemed really effective to me are Espeon, Porygon2, and Rhydon. I think they all have the potential to be OU, but it is true that the amount they are used doesn't really support that.